Words by: Dimitri Kalagas
It's been an intense couple of decades for Coldcut's Jon More and Matt Black, beginning back in the mid-eighties with their first release, and the UK's first ever sample built record, 'Say Kids, What Time Is It?' and the pioneering radio show Solid Steel. Since those early days, More and Black have gone on to build an aural and visual empire in the form of experimental beats and hip hop label Ninja Tune, home to ground-breaking artists such as Kid Koala, Roots Manuva, Hexstatic and Amon Tobin among many others. Hailed as pioneers of sample based production as well as the first to incorporate multimedia elements into their shows, Coldcut have not only witnessed massive innovation and change to the music industry, but have also had a major part in contributing to it.
Lifelounge spoke with musical veteran and one half of Coldcut, Matt Black about the forthcoming album Sound Mirrors and a bunch of other stuff that's been on his mind lately.
(Phone rings.)
MB: Hold on one second mate, I'll be with you in a tick.
(Vague watery bathroom sounds echo down the line.)
MB: Never before heard on interview Matt Black taking a dump.
D: Great we've got an exclusive.
MB: Yes there's an exclusive sample there for you.
D: So I guess I'll get down to business.
MB: Sure.
D: Your press release states that 'Coldcut have made the best album of their long and illustrious career'. Did you write that?
MB: No, no we didn't write that!
D: How do you feel about the statement, do you agree with it?
MB: It's not like we've made that many albums really, we haven't really been an album band. Dance acts don't fit that easily into that kind of music business. There haven't been many albums out of the dance scene that have managed to crack it. Blue Lines by Massive Attack is the exception. But yeah, we do think this is the best album we've made and we do think it's a milestone in our career. It's 19 years since we released 'Say Kids, What Time Is It?', which is a long time in the music business, let alone the ephemeral world of dance music. We are still full of ideas, energy and enthusiasm. I get people coming up to me at gigs, hugging me and shouting into my ear, 'Don't give up Matt, don't fucking give up, keep doing what you're doing, it's good!' So that's inspiring.
D: The sounds on the album are incredibly diverse; did you consciously set out to create such an eclectic collection of tracks, or did it just flow naturally?
MB: I think Coldcut's speciality is sound really, making interesting collages out of sound. Because we come from a DJing background, we do like a lot of different sorts of music, so that naturally influences the sort of music that we make. We were trying to get a balance between diversity and coherence. In the past, people have talked about our stuff as being eclectic and diverse, which is great; however, it can be hard to put on certain Coldcut records and listen to them from beginning to end. They can be a bit too jack-of-all-trades perhaps, or trying to hit too many areas. I think where we get it right is on mix albums like 'Journeys By DJ', where we had a lot of other people's classic material to work with and we were able to make a trip out of it. Doing it with your own material is perhaps more difficult.
D: I think you've managed to achieve that quite well with this album; it really flows from track to track.
MB: That's what people are saying; it's a difficult trick with the different vocalists. It could easily have come out sounding like a compilation, but there is something 'Coldcut' about each track, which I feel binds it together.
D: You have collaborated with an incredibly talented set of people on Sound Mirrors. Did you plan the collaborations prior to writing the tracks, or did you approach the individual artists as you developed each track?
MB: Yeah, we approached each artist on a track-by-track basis, the tracks were realised when we thought 'Well who might be suitable for this?' There were various people that we obviously wanted to work with, like Roots Manuva because he's a fantastic talent and he's on the label. Actually coming up with a track that was suitable for him was quite a challenge, though I think we got there in the end.
D: You have been producing music for about 20 years now, what are some of the major changes you have seen in that period, and where do you see the industry heading in the future?
MB: Well I think as one gets older - I worked this out in the last couple of days - the desire to be down with the latest hip thing sort of ebbs away slightly, because you see that what you thought was the revolution is just a revolution in terms of a cycle. So being down with whatever today's trouser length is seems less important. I think we've seen quite a few cycles go round and then there are cycles within cycles. I think the cycle of DJ dominance is coming to an end, and I'm not all that sorry to see it go. It's exactly the same as what happened with rock. But I still think the DJ as an expert selector, as someone who can guide a musical journey, is still a valuable figure.
There's a study which suggests that's kids aren't as much into music as they used to be. With the huge availability of MP3s and so on, kids are consuming music, but I don't think it's hitting them with that same intensity because it's so available. Perhaps it doesn't mark them in the same way. When I was a kid a 7' single cost about two weeks pocket money. So when I bought it I would really play it a lot and it would burn itself in. You'd save up for it with your paper round or whatever, and then you and your mates would sit around with your few records and really get into them.
D: You must have some strong views about technology and its impact on the music industry, particularly being owners of a seminal label like Ninja Tune. You just mentioned your views about the impact on the listener, how do you think technology has changed the industry?
MB: Can I just say before we go on, I suppose I do have strong opinions, but they're just opinions, I wouldn't die for any of them, because they're just a perspective and there's an equal and opposite perspective which is also true. The idea that I just spoke about is just a theory, it's not even an observation, and I don't know whether it's true or not. I just need to make that point clear.
D: Absolutely.
MB: So let's talk about the impact on the business. I actually think a lot of good can be attributed to technology. In the past there were a number of monopolies in place, which prevented the smaller operator from really being part of the music business. To record music you had to go into a big, expensive recording studio, which meant you had to get record company backing. That meant playing the music business game and cosying up to whoever made those decisions because individuals didn't have that money. Now on your desktop you can have several hundred thousand pounds worth of equipment for a few hundred quid, and I think that is an amazing change. So that monopoly has been broken.
The other monopoly that has been broken is the physical distribution. I remember being a student in the 70s, and I made a record and got Dennis Bovell to produce it. Have you heard of Dennis Bovell?
D: No I haven't.
MB: He produced the Splits and the Pop Group and he was one of England's top reggae producers. Anyway, getting that record into the shops was a nightmare and Rough Trade were the only people who would distribute an independent record. I used to take copies to local record stores and do deals. The Internet has changed that and it's now possible to distribute your product on the net through sites like <tunetribe.com>. You can also promote yourself on the net, if you have some smarts and some ideas. That's another monopoly that's been broken and is a positive change.
An example of the negative side is that our album isn't out yet and it's already available for download on file sharing networks. If people are going to swap files and not buy our album there isn't going to be another Coldcut record, and that's the truth facing a lot of artists. If people love music they should understand how it works.
D: What have your influences been over the years, are there any artists in particular (musical or otherwise) that have changed your philosophy or perception of the world to help you arrive at the creative point you are at now?
MB: I think people's influences occur when they are in their teens and perhaps into their 20s. When I was at college the music I got into then, black music mainly, marked me for life. Before that it was Talking Heads and the punk thing. Talking Heads were my favourite band for a long time. But then I got into James Brown, Fela Kuti, Gil Scott-Heron and the great reggae artists like Burning Spear and the Scientists. Then hip hop, obviously all the rap music, but particularly Grandmaster Flash and what he was doing with turntables really kicked it off for me. Of course there were a couple of middle class white guys from New York called Double D and Steinski. Without them I wouldn't be making music and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Then you've got all the early house people like Adonis, Farley Jackmaster Funk, Marshall Jefferson and Mr Fingers. Those records were absolutely massive influences. I think the energy of house music got burglarised over the years, but I still listen to those records and for me they still have that intensity.
Outside of music, every experience, every book, every film, even every advert I see is an influence, even if it is a negative one. In terms of authors I am influenced by C S Lewis; Phillip K Dick is my favourite author overall.
D: You have a background in computer programming and Coldcut are hailed as pioneers of VJing, and incorporating a multimedia element into their shows, what made you take the step towards combining those elements, and what was your motivation in doing so?
MB: Well having eyes and ears really! It seemed natural. I come from quite an artistic family and John has a similar background. We've always collected interesting bits of graphics and recycled things. I think the punk era had that effect on us as well, with the fanzines and collaged photocopied artwork. It was very do-it-yourself. People like Crass used a lot of cut-up visuals with their work, and that had an effect on me and John. After we started to get some money with Coldcut, I bought an Amiga computer, and it became clear to me that computers could be used as creative tools. Once we'd seen how it could work with music it was clear that it could be applied to other forms of art as well. So I've just been experimenting and developing that over the years. There's a freshness and an excitement to it that I've felt, as I felt the excitement in the early days of hip hop - that's why I call it a new kind of hip hop, 'audiovisual mixing' or 'scratch montage' I'm calling it. That's my favourite phrase this week.
I'm also into all the cyberpunk stuff. Do you know William Gibson?
D: I love William Gibson.
MB: Yeah, that's all a massive influence, Shockwave Rider by John Brunner, magazines like Mondo 2000. I used to keep up with all that shit, not so much now though, because you can see that a lot of what was predicted has actually happened. There's the idea of convergence - which is pretty popular as a buzz word - but to me convergence has already happened, it's just yet to go mass market. It's the idea that computer games, films, TV programs, music, video and perhaps art galleries, museums and education could all start to be the same thing, could all be connected using technology.
D: I checked your website and noticed there are no tour dates to Australia, do you think you'll be making it to the southern hemisphere at some point in the near future?
MB: I'm not sure when, it might even be this year. There is talk of an Australian tour, and it will be in the foreseeable future, we had a great time there and are looking forward to doing it again.
D: Finally, this issue of Lifelounge mag is the Sweet Edition - what do you consider sweet, interpret it any way you like ...
MB: Sweet hmmm. I still sleep next to my son, he's going to be ten soon, and both of us just like that experience of cuddling up to a loved one in a warm place, I think its sort of an atavistic pleasure really, and he is very sweet and tells me I am the best dad in the world, so that's sweet enough for me at this stage.
Coldcut's first album in seven years, Sound Mirrors is out on 6 February through Ninja Tune and Inertia.
Check out the video for True Skool, featuring Roots Manuva, here.
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